Max attributes or not? (mesmer)

Hi,

Just read the report about the E3 matches between devs and guilds...

I checked the characters used in this context and I was surprised to see many templates with 3 attributes, often one with a base of 12.

I had assumed that, like in most games I played so far, maxing out is not the best option as the last few points in each attribute cost so much more and could be put to a better use.

At the present time, I have a template like (approximation, cannot remember exactly):
fast casting 8+1,
domination 10+2 (rune + headgear),
illusion 10+1,
inspiration 9+1

I find all the four attributes useful, thus this build. At the present time, I do not have all end-game skills, so I am using:
- empathy
- backfire
- conjure phantasm
- chaos storm
- mantra of persistence
- power tap
- ether feast
- rez signet

When I get them, I might use:
- arcane concundrum
- diversion
(and get rid of empathy and chaos storm)

1)

Would you rather recommend me to drop one attribute to have 3 stronger ones? If so, which one and why?

2)

I got a superior domination rune but I am not sure I should use it... I mean, bringing domination to 14 would be nice but I would go from 525 life to 450... that's quite a drop.

Should I use this sup rune or not, and why?

Thanks in advance for your tips,

nostra

a focused build is stronger than an all around. can-do-it-all build

for example. you can have an elementalist/necromancer that can do everything. have focus on 2 elements. energy storage. curses, death/blood magic. he will only have about 1 skill per attribute. and his skills will be less effective than if he focused on less attributes.

the oposite of it would be an extremely focused build. lets say warrior/monk. you can max out your strength and a weapon stat. you will be extremely effective within those 2 attributes. but will only have a few usefull skills (a few doesn't mean he can't fill his bar) lets say he takes an axe. he can load up on axe skills. melee attacks (usually strength based) and sprint/rush and have a ressurect (unattributed. or go 12/12/3 with 3 in healing and bring restore life to boost the energy target recieves after being res'd)

hope it helps

Thanks for the answer.

I am aware of those extreme paths (2 attributes vs 6+ attributes). I think none is optimal and I guess most would agree.

My question was rather about the mid ways: I found 4 attributes pretty viable, cause I still get someting like 10, 10, 9, 7 ... and I felt that 10 and 9 were nearly as good as 12 but allowed to have still another decent 7... is this where I am wrong? does it make more sens to have 3 stronger attributes, as you can in any way have no more than 8 skills?

nostra

Well, just look at the difference between a the effect of a 12 attribute and, let's say, a 9 attribute:
(taken from The Edge, don't blame me if the numbers are wrong. Unless I made a mistake copying them down)
empathy: you gain an extra 2 secs duration an 5 damage
backfire: you gain 11 extra damage
conjure phantasm: extra 2 secs
chaos storm: 2 more damage, 1 more energy stolen
mantra of persistence:12 more seconds on you, hexes are 16% longer
energy tap: 1 more energy stolen
ether feast: 4 more HP per mana stolen healed

I'm playing me/w went illusion,domination,tactics. Pvp I use domination pretty much only for backfire,empathy (might try blackout) as for illusion I need it for Illusionary weapon. I tried switching out dom and felt less effictive. I use superior illusion and superior vigor runes,the vigor helps with the -75 but wasn't cheap (85k)

So I'm in favor of spreading points but if you don't like it you can always get refund points and try something else..

It depends on the build. Some builds need more attributes. A ranger for example needs points in Expertise and marksmanship just to use a bow, and will likely dip into a secondary for an arrow buff to combine with his other skills. Three attributes aren't uncommon. 11/10/10 is a great distribution, as is 12/10/8, depending on the class combos. Going to 4 is possible, but its true that you have to have a good reason, and the skills should bear it out. Some skills have little impact beyond a certain level of the attribute, others matter greatly.

A skill like Conjure Phantasm for example, whether it lasts 10 seconds or 12 seconds matters little in my mind - either way it is up for much longer than its recycle time. Sure, it deals a bit more damage at 12 seconds, but it isn't spike damage anyway. Spells like Judge's Insight deal their full 20% armour penetration at any level, so you are again only extending the duration.

You may have a spell like Rend Enchantments, which is in the necromancer curse line that you really want to bring along, but don't want a huge investment in curses - that's fine, it's an effective spell even with 3 points in curses stripping up to 4 enchntments off your target. Any reason to go to 12 curses if you are picking it up for Rend? Not really, unless you have a pressing need to strip 8 enchantments off someone. Chillblains is likewise a spell you may not need much for, at level 0 it strips one enchantment from all enemies in an area around you, and does 10 damage to them while causing disease in the caster for 3 seconds. At 12 Curses it does 37 damage to those around you, diseases you for 13 seconds, and still strips only 1 enchantment. If your goal is to have a spell you can activate to remove an enchanment from a group (without targetting - I suspect this can take a Spellbreaker off, or deal with an obsidian flesh) you don't really need the damage, right?

Sometimes a minor investment is handy, other times not. Sometimes maxing a spell out helps enormously, other times, not so much. Expertise is a step function, and is noticeable for 5 cost skills especially. If you are using 5 cost skills there is a break poit at 4, 8 and 13 expertise, but no advantage to having between 9 and 12. If you have a rack full of 5 cost skills and don't want to invest up to 13 then you can park it at 7 and throw a rune in your armour and be happy with your 8 expertise, provided you didn't need the expertise based skills maxed.

It's all in the build essentially, and those who say that the only build is 12/12/3 are used to playing classes and roles which work best as 12/12/3. For the rest of us there are many options.

11/10/10 has always been my favorite for attributes.

Like one of the previous posters said, a focused build will be stronger than a jack of all trades. With only 8 skills on your bar to choose from, you should be able to fill it up quite easily with 3 different skill sets.

The main disadvantage of focusing yourself in a few skills is that you become less diverse. This means that in certain situations you will be extremely useful, while others you will be almost useless. This is where team dependance becomes important. IF (and this is a big If) you can find yourself a balanced team, it will always be more beneficial to focus yourself in a few skills.

It depends on what sort of character you're running. Warriors and Elementalists and straight up damage machines in PvP, so they want the highest attributes possible with which to dish out the pain - meaning a natural 12 along with the hat and superior rune.

Monks work in a similar vein, generally wanting to spec either healing or protection highly along with Divine Favor, with perhaps a splash from the secondary. The difference is that the added emphesis of survival on a Monk means you don't always want to use the Superior rune, but you do want to focus your attributes.

On the other hand, a Mesmer has the flexibility to not focus his attributes as much - high level Domination can be some scary stuff, but spreading around a bit to have access to hate from different lines can be even more effective. A lot of Mesmer skills just get duration if you pump up their attribute, so the value of maxing out a single attribute is much lower.

Rangers are a different beast as they want high Expertise and Marksmanship regardless, so they're going to have to be 4 attribute wonders if you want to do anything interesting.

Necromancers are too much of a specialized class to make any generalities.

Peace,
-CxE

First of all, ignore the advice of anyone who tells you the best way to divide up your attribute points without first asking you which skills you are using.

After you've decided upon your skillset, start playing with the points. Skills often have breakpoints much like the aforementioned Expertise benefit does. If your only skills in a particular attribute work just as well with an 8 as with a 9, put a 7 there, get a minor rune, and spend your points elsewhere. I've seen skills that do as well at 9 as at 12. No point going to 12 there, unless it's for some other skills under the same attribute.

It all depends on your build. A pure healer might to best with a 12/12/3, whereas a buff-stacking archer will probably do best with a 10/8/8/8/7. But without knowing the specifics of the build, I'm going out on a limb saying even that much. The point is, for a lot of builds, the extra points to go from 10 to 12 aren't worth what you give up in other attributes by doing it, whereas for a lot of builds, you don't really give up anything, since you don't actually have any better use for the points. It all depends on the build.

I have to disagree with Dreamsmith to a degree - you don't pick your attributes to match your skills any more than you pick your skills to match your attributes. The two work together. You have to compare the effectiveness of high level skills to dividing between multiple attributes for better / more synergistic skills. Sometimes it's better to knock a point or two out of an attribute to grab an off skill. Sometimes you just want to focus as much as possible.

There aren't any hard and fast rules, but if you're running more than four attributes you'd better have a bloody good reason to.

Peace,
-CxE

Losing out on a point or 2 in illusion isn't going to be that big of a deal with mantra of persistance to boost your duration. I don't think mantra of persistance (stance) duration can be helped with a staff of enchanting... too bad.

I run 10/10/7/9 Domination/Inspiration/Fast Casting/other (depends on current secondary) and currently have +1 dom mask and +1 dom & inspiration runes (so effective 12/11/7/9), with a +2 fast casting rune ready.

Go with the attribute selection that makes the most sense for your build. Having two 12's isn't for everyone.