Help - Succumbing to frustration

(Apologies for the length)

So I've been playing since June/July of this year and have a few 20s at various stages of progress, plus a slew of alts who are still pre-20. My Mesmer has been my main for the last couple of months and I've run her through a good deal of content; a little past Droknar's in Prophesies, completed Factions (easily), I'm within a couple of missions of completing Nightfall, and have reached only as far as my HoM in EotN. So this character still needs work, but is still pretty seasoned.

Here's the problem: I'm getting creamed with frightening regularity these days and it's killing my resolve to continue. My Mesmer breezed through content when I first started with her, and pretty much all the way until the later stages of NF, which is why I decided to keep her as my main. But now, I'm finding that I'm struggling with even the explorable areas I'm trying to complete, let alone the missions.

I realize that the campaigns get more difficult in the order they were released, so that's expected. I just hadn't anticipated the difficulty would jump so steeply so quickly. I've even completed a number of Vanquishes in the Jade Sea area that felt like cakewalks compared to the NM stuff I'm doing now. So right now I'm not sure what I need to do to overcome it.

I don't want to get into a whole lot of details about builds and tactics. I've read several guides and tried them as best I could, but it doesn't seem to be helping. So I guess I'm looking for some general tips that may not be common knowledge, but also may have been overlooked in the material I've read.

One major issue I'm having is dealing with incoming AoE, which is now tending to decimate my group pretty handily, and none of the H/H shuffling I've done seems capable of preventing it. I've been able to soak it up, up until now and burn down the mobs, but now it's tearing through us with ease. I'm guessing that by manually spreading my heroes out, it can be mitigated, but is this how all the content from here on out is meant to be approached? I actually stopped playing my minion master due to the drudgery of having to micro-manage so much, but it seems that playing with an H/H team now requires it. And not just for the rare tough encounter, but even with wandering mobs in explorable areas.

I'd actually prefer to be playing with human players, but the two PuGs I ran with pretty much turned me off them for good. I'm in a guild, but it's very small and there are rarely many people on.

So, what do I need to adjust to get through the rest of the game? Is there a certain H/H mix that would help? Some standard tactic that I'm not aware of? Maybe there's a way I could be playing more defensively? This would actually concern me if so, since usually, NM is considered pretty easy. This was also my experience up until recently as well.

Maybe playing a Mesmer at this point is just a bad idea for me. I have other 20s, but none of them nearly as seasoned as this one, and I'm reluctant to have to repeat all the skill capping and hero unlocking I've already done to this point. I'm "trying" to fill out my HoM, so I'd hate to have to start pretty much from scratch again and lose the progress I've made with all those title tracks.

One other thing -- I'm not rich. I have about 60p squirreled away in my elite armor fund, so I can't manage any huge monetary expenditures.

Anyway, if you've read this far, thanks! If you can offer any suggestions or advice, BIG THANKS!!

Your scenario is not unique. I had a really rough time when I first started too. I find what really carries you through Normal Mode, and HM too for that matter, is having a solid team setup with your heroes. Have you browsed through PVX yet to see suggestions on some builds for PvE? If not, I suggest you check out Discordway or Sabway, as those are good, strong, all-purpose builds for normal mode.

Don't give up hope, it gets easier as you figure things out. I've been playing for 3 years and I still keep figuring out new things as I go along.

Well, certainly there are things you can do about these things.

(fast post, will add content)

First, it's important to note that the Realm of Torment is an area that's more difficult than the other campaigns endgame areas. Even on its own. However, there are a few more problems that people face in RoT:
-taking on master level quests that spawn additional foes over at the entrance of the very first area (quest Breaking the Broken)
-getting a multi-group aggro just into the Domain of Terror (the three Rains+1other groups), these will hurt

Second, there are some ways to deal with troublesome AoE attacks.
-interrupt them with your own interrupts (try Complicate, Cry of frustration, Panic, etc)
-if you're like me and can't interrupt a 5 second cast spell, bring a hero to do the interrupting
-bring a hero with protectiver spirit, force cast it on one of the characters, then send that character into the fray to trigger the troublesome AoE attacks, and only then charge in
-the ultimate andwer to troublesome AoE spikes: bring a Soul twisting ritualist (just beat Xandra in the Norn tournament, one area due north of the Eye of the north itself). Equip her with Soul twisting (factions ritualist elite), Shelter, Union, Displacement, Armor of unfeeling and you've got a core build (me, I just add in the trigger on summon enchants to let her focus), and PRECAST the spirits before aggroing

Third, make sure you equip the lightbringer title. The bonus damage helps.

Fourth, post your own and your heroes' builds, and we'll take a look at what could be improved.

Last: there are a few skill sets that let you C-space all of normal mode. Litterally.

P.S. Mesmers rock at this time. You can nuke like nobody's business (better than an elementalist, since you've got armor ignoring skills) and still shut down the enemy.

1. The Realm of Torment is tough. Especially for a mesmer. But you will get through it. Even with the wiki guides, the last couple of missions can be difficult.

2. Make sure that you have no quests in your book for the area you are in except the quest you are working on. You do not need extra enemies. Do not try to clear the maps. Just get from point A to point B with as little combat as possible.

3. You should have your Lightbringer title turned on. It reduces the damage incoming and increases your damage. Against Margonites and Demons anyway. And use your signet. More Lightbringer is always good.

4. Mantra of Flame helps a bit with the fire AoE. On you and your heroes. Zhed spamming wards is a very good idea. Ranger or mesmer hero along spamming interrupts. Healer hero with condition and hex removal.

5. Longbow in weapons slot 4 for pulling. When the arrow turns loose do not wait for it to hit. Run back behind your party. If you have Olias or Master with minions, they can take the brunt of it.

Let us know exactly where you are and we can make better suggestions.

P.P.S. watch it with PvX wiki these days. There's a bit of a revolt going on... and you'd probably better watch out for "fun" builds getting amazing ratings, at least for a few days.

get in a guild
ask for help
???
profit

Enfeeble, Asura Scan, Necrosis, Lyssa's Aura + a few other skills I cannot remember at the moment. Run Discordway with that. Remember that soon we will be allowed to fill up our party with heroes, so soon you will be able to bring heroes capable of countering AoE, so do not get too discouraged just yet.

Hero/hench AI is pretty awful when it comes to incoming AoE. If you're going into an area where you'll be facing it a lot you either have to build ridiculously defensively so you can ball up and still survive, or as you said you have to use the flags to spread them out so they can't ball up and get themselves wiped. If you have a hero with offensive spirits or with minions, flag them slightly forwards of the rest of the group so that the spirits or minions rather than you and your party will be targetted for the initial AoE blast, and use a long/flatbow to pull the enemy to you.

For Torment as a mesmer I'd probably want a minion bomber necro hero with a couple of prots, a mesmer hero with a build to complement my own (either AoE damage or AoE shutdown, depending on which role I was filling myself), an offensive spirit rit hero with a couple of resto skills, the earth hench, the para hench, and the two monk henches. The extra prots and heals on the two heroes, and the wards and motivation skills from the non-monk hench, should be more than enough defence.

Additionally there's the advice above about only having your primary quest active and not taking any side quests, and possibly there's changing your build or bringing an extra healer if the environmental effects are really screwing over your energy or health and making you kill slower/die faster.

Playing mesmer is fun, so don't give up on it just yet. Good luck.

Asuran Scan? Only you get the damage increase and it only triggers on attacks, not spells. It's useless in that build, unless you plan to do a lot of wanding.

I play w h/h and have the same problem. i have learnt that certain things are better left for the heroes too, like being a mm or a disruptor. When i run in and find out I m gonna be in trouble, i watch carefully what it is that is giving the trouble and sometimes, instead of pressing on, I get back to town and rebuild myself or the heroes or change henchmen. Mission time, I may actually end up goggling the mission and looking at different pov because sometimes one person says do this and you will get a master easy... well I tried but it didn't work out for me. And I am pro-ranger and pet and gave all my heroes their own level 20 pets when I dress the heroes as ranger secondaries in areas I find I need extra tanks. I could go with Nerco secondaries but I always like to have that choice. That may take a little while to level the pets though.

Next is Elite skills. I always have one slot free if I know there is an elite for my class in that area because these skills are great if combined nicely with the normal ones. Lightbearers and Sunspears are also great skills to get.

I do hope you have runed up and enhanced all yours and your heroes' armours and weapons.

probably as a somewhat spammable insta-cast hex for discordway. i'd still recommend parasitic bond way before burning a pve skill on your bar. better spammability and fast casting will make the 1 sec cast more tolerable.

Lure.
Good skills and builds are certainly important but newer players might not have all elites and heroes and special title related skills available. (it can be hard to make a discord team if you only have 1 necro hero etc) You can make up for a lot of that bu wise strategy.
Don't rush in to fight, take a short break here and there and watch the clusters of enemies. Some are stationary, some are moving around. Flag heroes behind, and use a longbow to pull one mob at a time to fight. This way you can avoid fighting multiple mobs at the same time, which is a very common reason for failing in the more advanced areas.

This.

Also take down healers and elementalists first unless your partys aoe damage and dps is high enough to obliterate everything at the same time.

Even though it may not feel like it, mesmers are one of the best professions to take through the Realm of Torment. That is, if you know you to use them properly. Almost all of mesmer damage is armor ignoring, which handily negates the beefed up armor of the Realm of Torment foes. But still, things can be tough if you're not sure what you're up against.

Basic strategies include pretargeting the worst of the baddies (generally the AoE wielding Elementalist foes and/or the monks) and selecting specific mesmer skills to beat them into submission. Backfire (with high domination investment) is great for this purpose, as is Panic, VoR, and Tease (best wielded on a hero). Watch the skills your foes are casting and interrupt the nastiest ones. You'll find that a lot of the hardest hitting foes have 1 or 2 big skills and the rest is meh, so watch for those skills. A good skill that any player can wield effectively in this way is "You move like a dwarf!" Mesmers have enough interrupts to not specifically need this, but it still works amazingly well, since it has no activation time and can be used while a longer cast skill is still activating (try putting backfire on, and while its casting KDem so they can't get anything off, or use it as an interrupt on anything that can be KDed).

The best ways to combat AoE include interrupting it, or extensive use of prots like prot spirit, Shelter, union, Shield of Absorption, etc. You should have Zhed at that point of the game, so you might want to put an Ether Renewal protection bar on him.

Also, before doing anything in the realm of torment, make sure you're wearing your Lightbringer title and that you have the effect it gives (damage reduction from foes, damage increase for you). That place was designed to be pretty hardcore, so avoid fighting more than one mob at a time (this can be done by flagging properly and pulling with a long/flatbow.

Finally, if your guild isn't on enough to help, consider joining one that's more active, or at least partying with alliance members. Most of GW is more fun with other humans anyway. Good hunting.

Also, learn to micro your heroes at least a little. Lock them onto high priority targets when you engage a mob (only one mob at a time, as others have said). High priority targets are typically healers, interrupters, rezzers, etc. I can't tell you how annoying it is to take out targets to just have them rezzed so you have to take them out AGAIN. Learn which baddies res and SPIKE them. Especially when they rez healers. @#%@#@!

Thanks everyone, for the advice. Many of those tips I'm already employing such as wearing my Lightbringer tag and focusing healers/rezzers and AoE-ers, but others are things that I hadn't considered, or had either dismissed earlier because I hadn't need them or because I didn't have the skills/heroes required to make them work. I won't respond individually since there were so many replies, so I'll try generally sum things up.

I *need* to develop a group build, not just strong individual builds. This is one of those things I hadn't been able to do earlier because of all the missing skills. This is still a problem because I am still missing what I need for those builds that were mentioned, but I'll try to focus on capping them and picking up the final heroes I need.

Micro-managing heroes. I've found this onerous because I'm a hotkey monkey and I could never find a way to set my heroes on an enemy with a button press, and had to rely on mousing the command. This is substantially slower for me to do, so if there's a way to set this up as a key command that I've missed, please let me know.

Pulling. I'm already familiar with over-agroing and I recognize that when I do it, I'm setting myself up for a fall. No problem there. Up until now I've always opened with Shared Burden because the mobs are generally bunched up and it slows everything down: movement, attacks and casts; then follow up with whatever I have that causes the maximum amount of mass mayhem. Maybe this isn't viable at all anymore? I've also tried sending a 'tank' in ahead to draw fire, but without that opener, I have a lot of trouble with loose mobs swarming our lines. Is there a better way to open?

Target selection. I usually go after healers first, but if I'm concentrating on them, I'm not watching those big AoEs. But I find if I ignore the healers and go after the cannons first, I don't have enough firepower to blast through them quickly and end up spending a lot of energy fighting through the heals while taking more damage than I can mitigate. I suppose the quick answer is more firepower and more mitigation. Is that also the only answer?

I respecced a while back into Illusion and instead relied on Gwen or a henchie for interrupting. Is Domination a better alternative these days or for the content I'm now tackling? I'm no slouch at getting a quick interrupt off, but obviously, still no where near the AI's speed. Time to return to Domination? I admit, I do miss Backfire and Chaos Storm immensely.

Team builds. I've looked at a few, and currently can't put together any of them completely. I'm patient and don't mind taking longer than normal to get through things, I'd just prefer to do it as safely as possible. What would be a good recommended team build for maximum defense? If a fight that would take someone else 30 seconds takes me a minute and a half to two minutes, I'm perfectly fine with that. I just want to come out the other end sans DP. I'll work towards whichever build fits the description.

I guess that's pretty much it. Like I said, I don't want to get into the nitty-gritty of builds too much. I just want more of a general direction to head in. Clearly I need to make a lot of adjustments because I'm still doing things the same way as if I'd just stepped foot outside of Shing Jea for the first time.

Thanks again for all the valuable help.

For the most part, you should be able to get your H/H focused by calling a target. What's the default key for that, Left Control?

My mesmer has not done upper Nightfall yet, but I had a ridiculously easy time with her in most other areas as a Domination (Backfire/Empathy) Assassin's Promise caller with Discorders.

Also, depending on the type of AoE you're taking, don't overlook Mantras. They can be handy for any team in some of those latter missions.

Eh...

1. You have max armor, right?

2. As mentioned, you need a team build, not a bunch of individual builds.

3. Aggro control. Do not aggro more than one mob at a time. Pull with a longbow if you need to move a mob away from another mob (or another mobs patrol route).

4. Proper backline? Are you running two healers? Mhenlo + Kihm should be adequate for most of NM, though RoT does strain them a bit. You could always try running a ER hero healer in place of Kihm. That should make you pretty much invincible.

5. Enough damage? Even a proper backline can't hold out forever. You need to kill stuff within a reasonable period of time. This is often a problem for mesmer builds, especially for inexperienced players. The more I think about it, the more I'm suspecting this might be a big factor.

6. Shutdown. Figure out what the monsters are doing that's killing you, and preempt it. If it's melee, someone should have Enfeebling Blood. It sounds like AoE casters are a problem for you. Consider bringing Panic as your elite. Or interrupts on your bar. Or a BHA ranger hero and lock them onto the AoE sources before initiating aggro (I can hear Fay screaming at that suggestion).

7. Positioning. If you know a mob has some painful AoE, don't stand in it. Flag the heroes apart. Or, better yet, flag the heroes back (and maybe apart too), pre-prot yourself (that's where the ER hero comes in), and then initate aggro by drawing all the AoE onto yourself. (The monster AI almost always uses its big AoE immediately, so you can almost always force it to waste the AoE in this manner.)

8. Target priorities. Greatest threat to success first. Effective monster healers are a major threat to success, and therefore a high-priority target. But most monster healers are not effective... at all. Especially in NM, they generally don't have a rez and you can kill things out from under them as if they weren't even there. For example, the healers in RoT, Word of Madness, have a remarkably crap skillbar; their only heals are Reversal of Damage and Signet of Devotion. They also do next to no damage. That means you can basically ignore them while you deal with the real threats -- such as the AoE that's killing you. I guess this boils down to learning the monster builds (or at least which monsters are real threats and which ones aren't).