Guild Wars Guru

Henchman Skill Bar Contest Winners!

15 pages • Page 15
l
lutz
Jungle Guide
• #281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra View Post
We're aware of the criticism that some of the winners have builds that are popular. It probably wasn't that surprising that players were going to submit builds that are proven and commonly-used. Popular and commonly-used builds got submitted by many, many people, and they are popular for a reason: they're effective. The designers did extensive in-game research on what builds were being played and what builds people were looking for when forming a party. Many people submitted the same build to the contest, but a significant portion of the winners had unique bars that no one else had submitted. There were a lot of factors the designers had to keep in mind: whether those winning henchmen bars will get play and if players would want to use them, whether those bars will be effective, how those builds fit with overall design goals, and so on. They weren't judging the winning bars based on only a couple of factors. So while we're aware that not everyone is satisfied with the results, the team just wanted to let you know about the balance issues they were wrestling with when judging those submissions.
You mean balance issues the development team is so notoriously bad at?

A handful of builds were truly classified as "unique" (the Lyssa's Bar, the Cripshot Bar) and are all absolutely horrendous. If you want to state that the Cripshot bar was chosen because "other, more powerful skills, would have made it not so good for balance" and you wanted 2 bad skills that actually do something, then why are other bars stuck with absolute AI garbage (e.g. Make Haste, Song of Concentration, Infuse Health, Illusion of Pain, Death's Charge)? Why not replace them with skills that AI use properly, like Signet of Rejuv, Conjure Phantasm/Nightmare, etc?

It's clear that the actual AI was not taken into consideration in selection of the bars. Even if the AI is improved, you'll stumble into another problem - an AI infuser being too good or too bad (really, there is no middle ground here), Make Haste/Song Conc used correctly (unless you can literally micro your henchmen, neither of these will be useful) and a variety of other things.
infymys
infymys
Frost Gate Guardian
• #282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra View Post
The AI for the henchmen will be tweaked and improved as appropriate.
So, for example, the Magehunter warrior. You honestly want us to believe that the AI will be tweaked that it will shadowstep, magehunter, crushing blow, wait for target to get up and then hammer bash? Oh, and that's after it builds up adrenaline if it used enraging and flail in a competent manner. Same goes for the Wastrel's sin and the majority of the other bars. You honestly think it's just going to a be "tweaking" of the AI?
StormDragonZ
StormDragonZ
Desert Nomad
• #283
I think it's time for us to move past this little situation and into another one:

What kind of names will we get? Specifically, for those of you who won, what do you plan to name your winning character?

Also, one person getting an unique tonic seems rather... um... well, you're going to have to draw a lot of attention to get people to notice you with the tonic applied.
Regina Buenaobra
Regina Buenaobra
ArenaNet
• #284
The dev team has stated to me that the reason certain builds were chosen is because they're effective, they work for the game, and they meet their overall design goals for those formats.

Each winner will have to sign and return a Declaration of Eligibility and Liability Release form, confirming that they are eligible to participate in the contest and that they have obeyed the rules of the contest.

This contest isn't exactly like submitting a piece of art. Every single person has access to the same building blocks, so it stands to chance that multiple people will have independently thought of and submitted the same or similar sets of skills. By signing and returning the release form to us, those winners are declaring on a legal document that they thought of those builds themselves.

In some cases where multiple people submitted the same set of skills; the winner was determined by a die roll.

Another note: remember that Guild Wars is always changing. The design team may decide to modify the henchmen in the future if they feel it's appropriate, this includes tweaking their AI, or even changing their skills.

These were the guidelines as listed in the official rules:

Quote:
"We want you to devise potent, effective skill bars for the new henchmen in GvG and Heroes Ascent."

"Do you have ideas for great, competitive henchmen skill bars? Enter your best skill bars in our Henchman Skill Bar Contest!"

"Entries will be judged on the basis of merit and appropriateness to game design considerations as determined by the Development Team."
Here are some interesting stats for you.

Of the winning builds, we had:

1 Build -> 62 submissions
1 Build -> 51 submissions
1 Build -> 9 submissions
1 Build -> 5 submissions
3 Builds -> 4 submissions
2 Builds -> 3 submissions
8 Builds -> 2 submissions
23 Builds -> 1 submission

So this means that more than half of the winning builds were not submitted by anyone else. This is out of over 30 000 submissions.
Fril Estelin
Fril Estelin
So Serious...
• #285
I kind of agree with Inde and hope that only a tiny minority of the people that submitted the 30k builds are here. I guess that the people at Anet who made the final selection could really help "the community" if they explained a bit what happened.

This thread (I tried to read most) reminds me of one section of Linsey's August 28 devnote:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...urdock/Journal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linsey
A New Approach

I know this is a lot of information to take in, and it comes in a package that is sort of unusual in the game industry. At the beginning of the year, we spoke about wanting to be more open about what we’re working on and set this as a high priority in the months that followed. We had a lot of plans for how to accomplish this, but as they say, "The best laid plans of mice and men often go astray.”

We’ve decided to try a slightly different approach, starting with this post. As you can see, we are relaxing our stance on talking about projects that are in progress and projects that are just getting going. We’ve launched Facebook and Twitter pages to give you quick updates on what we are up to. Taking a less formal approach like this will work easier with our fast-paced schedule and will hopefully increase the flow of information to you.

This degree of transparency is unusual for large game companies, being more common to smaller studios and indie projects. We’ll be sharing information and offering insights into the development process that the public normally doesn’t have access to for AAA games. This kind of stuff goes on behind the scenes anyway; we’re just pulling the curtain back to show you the process. To make this new approach successful, our community needs to meet us halfway. We all have to be on the same side here.

So, in return for this openness, we expect you, our community, to be understanding when projects that we have discussed may be canceled or changed, or a project or build is delayed. We want you to have ambitious expectations for us, but to understand that there are always limitations. Everyone has to deal with finite resources, competing priorities, and unexpected complications, and we’re no different. By embracing this reality, we can work together to bridge the gap between development and community for the betterment of the game.

I’m looking forward to chatting about my work openly, but as always please keep in mind that there will be lulls in activity from time to time.
EDIT: ReTweet from GWO:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra
Actually, these were the guidelines stated in the official rules:

"We want you to devise potent, effective skill bars for the new henchmen in GvG and Heroes Ascent."

"Do you have ideas for great, competitive henchmen skill bars? Enter your best skill bars in our Henchman Skill Bar Contest!"

"Entries will be judged on the basis of merit and appropriateness to game design considerations as determined by the Development Team."
IronSheik
IronSheik
Forge Runner
• #286
Of course half of them are unique, I'm guaranteeing a lot of them didn't even have elites,not the whole GW populous is on here, there are a bunch of random PuGs that submitted their super Healing breeze bar. So that means somewhere around 1/2 and less were duplicates.
Foe
Foe
Banned
• #287
If the hench are terrible and useless its a good thing. I dont like the idea of a Magebane bot at stand though. Interrupts should not be on any AI controlled character imo.

Its kinda funny. They failed SOOO hard on selecting useable hench bars they broke through the basement floor and went into negative fail thus producing some accidental win.
]HM[ Sabre Wolf
]HM[ Sabre Wolf
Lion's Arch Merchant
• #288
Thanks for the feedback, its always interesting to read the statiscial data. Like I mentioned to you before Regina... I miss the GvG Final Skill usage break down on the GW site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra View Post
Of the winning builds, we had:

1 Build -> 62 submissions
1 Build -> 51 submissions
Just for the sake of curiosity, what were those two builds? EviShock I assume is one since its been around for god knows how long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra View Post
23 Builds -> 1 submission
WOW, seriously? That can be taken one of two ways... considering the fact that half of the bars that won are meta, either...

A.) Those 23 People were smarter then all of us
B.) Other people were following a phantom "must be creative and not overally used bar" rule.

Not sure how to answer my own question TBH...
Fril Estelin
Fril Estelin
So Serious...
• #289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra View Post
Here are some interesting stats for you.

Of the winning builds, we had:

1 Build -> 62 submissions
1 Build -> 51 submissions
1 Build -> 9 submissions
1 Build -> 5 submissions
3 Builds -> 4 submissions
2 Builds -> 3 submissions
8 Builds -> 2 submissions
23 Builds -> 1 submission

So this means that more than half of the winning builds were not submitted by anyone else. This is out of over 30 000 submissions.
Interesting indeed Regina. But people will argue that PvX builds didn't get submitted much (and got rewarded) or that trully original ones didn't get rewarded, given that we have no idea which build is which in these statistics (it can actually support the opposite theory, since "original" ideas would be submitted more due to the originality rule). Unless they're told how builds were selected, which I guess is a pretty complex thing to do.
Shayne Hawke
Shayne Hawke
Departed from Tyria
• #290
Why would you put emphasis on the playerbase having a good understanding of what's effective and what's not and then play up that the winning builds have originality for only being submitted by a few players?

If the playerbase really understood what was effective and what wasn't, wouldn't that mean that the builds that have honest potential would be ones that many players have submitted, due to a consensus on how the game is best played?

Also, someone please point out to me the statement that appeared anywhere before this contest's close that says anything about Hero AI being adjusted to fit builds. I'm going to bet that many players trying to take this contest seriously made an effort to use skills and bars that suited the current Hero AI, rather than rely on the AI to be adjusted to fit the build. Had something been mentioned about that, I'm sure that the input for and outcome of this contest would have been considerably different.
Arkantos
Arkantos
The Greatest
• #291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyy High View Post
I beg of you, try to come up with a decent build for PvP that isn't in some way up on PvXWiki, then come back and try to prove how ANet violated its rules. Quality of builds >>> creativity of builds, kthnx.
This is exactly why the 'originality rule' failed, along with the whole competition. ANet are merely rewarding people for copypasting off pvx, which is pretty silly. Instead of going through 30,000 submissions, they could have simply went on pvx and copied popular builds, which is what the winners builds are.

Quote:
The dev team has stated to me that the reason certain builds were chosen is because they're effective, they work for the game, and they meet their overall design goals for those formats.
While this is very true, what was the point of having the originality rule, when the majority of winning builds were copied from pvx? Everyone was under the assumption that builds copied from wiki wouldn't win (because the rules stated that the build couldn't be taken from another source). Thousands of people posted more original builds, while others ignored the rules and copied directly off pvx. So, who are the winners? The ones who ignored the rules and copied their builds. Now, I'm not mad that the builds that one aren't original, because effectiveness > originality. Although I do find it pretty dumb that you're rewarding players who ignored the rules and copied their builds.

Quote:
Here are some interesting stats for you.

Of the winning builds, we had:

1 Build -> 62 submissions
1 Build -> 51 submissions
1 Build -> 9 submissions
1 Build -> 5 submissions
3 Builds -> 4 submissions
2 Builds -> 3 submissions
8 Builds -> 2 submissions
23 Builds -> 1 submission

So this means that more than half of the winning builds were not submitted by anyone else. This is out of over 30 000 submissions.
Do you want to know why so little people posted the winning builds? Because the majority of people who submitted a build didn't copy off pvx, since it was against the rules.
G
Gonzo_Neo
Academy Page
• #292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra View Post
The dev team has stated to me that the reason certain builds were chosen is because they're effective, they work for the game, and they meet their overall design goals for those formats.

Each winner will have to sign and return a Declaration of Eligibility and Liability Release form, confirming that they are eligible to participate in the contest and that they have obeyed the rules of the contest.

This contest isn't exactly like submitting a piece of art. Every single person has access to the same building blocks, so it stands to chance that multiple people will have independently thought of and submitted the same or similar sets of skills. By signing and returning the release form to us, those winners are declaring on a legal document that they thought of those builds themselves.

In some cases where multiple people submitted the same set of skills; the winner was determined by a die roll.

Another note: remember that Guild Wars is always changing. The design team may decide to modify the henchmen in the future if they feel it's appropriate, this includes tweaking their AI, or even changing their skills.

These were the guidelines as listed in the official rules:

"We want you to devise potent, effective skill bars for the new henchmen in GvG and Heroes Ascent."

"Do you have ideas for great, competitive henchmen skill bars? Enter your best skill bars in our Henchman Skill Bar Contest!"

"Entries will be judged on the basis of merit and appropriateness to game design considerations as determined by the Development Team."



Here are some interesting stats for you.

Of the winning builds, we had:

1 Build -> 62 submissions
1 Build -> 51 submissions
1 Build -> 9 submissions
1 Build -> 5 submissions
3 Builds -> 4 submissions
2 Builds -> 3 submissions
8 Builds -> 2 submissions
23 Builds -> 1 submission

So this means that more than half of the winning builds were not submitted by anyone else. This is out of over 30 000 submissions.
Quote:
"We want you to devise potent, effective skill bars for the new henchmen in GvG and Heroes Ascent."

"Do you have ideas for great, competitive henchmen skill bars? Enter your best skill bars in our Henchman Skill Bar Contest!"

"Entries will be judged on the basis of merit and appropriateness to game design considerations as determined by the Development Team."
Sorry but this as a simplye guideline to players.


THERE ARE THE OFICIAL RULES FROM www.guildwars.com, something that ALL players and arena.net have to follow if they are serius.

http://uk.guildwars.com/events/contests/henchbar/

Quote:
* Originality: Entries must be the submission of the contestant and cannot be taken from any other source. Your submission must not infringe on any patent, copyright, trademark or other intellectual property right, or any privacy, publicity or publishing rights of any third party, or be libelous, obscene or otherwise contrary to law.

* Eligibility (age): As of August 1, 2009, contestants must be 13 years of age or older. Due to legal requirements, European contestants must be 18 years of age or older as of that date, or must have a parent or guardian enter in the minor's name.

* Eligibility (exclusions): Employees of ArenaNet, Inc., NC Interactive, Inc., NCsoft Europe Ltd., and NCsoft Corporation (collectively, "Sponsor"), and each of their respective parent companies, affiliates, subsidiaries, representatives, advertising, promotion and publicity agencies and members of the immediate families (defined as parents, children, siblings and spouse, regardless of where they reside) or households of such employees are not eligible.

* Eligibility (location): Entries will be accepted from legal residents of the United States (excluding the State of Rhode Island, Guam, Puerto Rico, U.S. territories, military installations and commonwealths), Canada (excluding Quebec) and Europe. (Canadian residents will be required to answer an additional mathematical question in order to claim their prize.)

* Prize: There are twenty (20). All winners will have their character name and the skill bar they submitted posted on the official website when the winners' announcement is made. In addition, winners will receive prizes as outlined in the Prizes section above.

* Judging: Entries will be judged on the basis of merit and appropriateness to game design considerations as determined by the Development Team. In the event that a winning skill bar is submitted by multiple people, the person awarded a prize will be selected randomly.

* Deadline: Entries must be received by 12:00 Noon PDT on Thursday, August 27, 2009.

* Announcement: Winners will be announced on or around September 24, 2009 and will be posted on www.guildwars.com. If a winner cannot be contacted at the email address they submitted, or is contacted and does not respond by signing and returning to us for our receipt within the time indicated on the documents, a Declaration of Eligibility (or, in Canada, a Declaration of Compliance with Contest Rules) and Liability/Publicity Release, or refuses or is ineligible to accept a prize, the prize may be awarded to the next highest ranking entrant on or about September 28. 2009. Any prize not claimed by one alternately chosen winner will not be awarded. Prizes are not transferable. No substitution of prize for cash or other goods and services is permitted, except Sponsor reserves the right to provide a substitute prize of approximately equal value. Taxes on prizes (including, without limitation, income or withholding taxes or duties), if any, are the sole responsibility of the individual winners. If a winner is under 18 or a minor in his or her state/province/country of residence, his or her parent or guardian must also sign the applicable release and documentation.


Well, now you said that the winners have to sign a contrat of "originality" where they said that they thought the builds.

Sorry Regina, but this dont convert the winners build in original builds, they dont keep the rules and Arena.net know it, but Arena.net instead recognize his error with the choice of builds and keep her own rules, make sign a contract and voila, there a " SUPER ORIGINAL BUILD" even that arena.net and the winner knows that is false.


Now have a question, if i submit a artwork of GW, and only me submited, will i be the winner ?? Is perfect, is copied but ONLY ME submit, thats convert in original art , and i can sign a "originality contract" ^^.



Best original hallowen artwork ever.
infymys
infymys
Frost Gate Guardian
• #293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra View Post
So this means that more than half of the winning builds were not submitted by anyone else. This is out of over 30 000 submissions.
Because no one in their right mind would run that cripshot bar, the GvG version of the LC bar or the Migraine bar (please explain how the atts are going to work on that). Or instead of the Me/Rt VoR bar pre-resolve nerf, it was changed to Me/D instead with one skill change. Or the LS bar that has two changes in Remove Hex and Gift of Health (?!?!) instead of veil and aura. Is that how you see them as unique and different?
S
Shadowed Ritualist
Ascalonian Squire
• #294
Okay, this is just sad. Regina, no one submitted these builds because they decided to follow the rules of the contest. They decided to not copy from pvx. They were the good people who actually worked to come up with builds, and yet you reward breaking the rules of the contest. I don't care if 23 were only submitted once, that means that that person decided to use that optional listed on that pvx build.

Granted, Some are unique. But I've checked and found largely more than half of the bars to be exact pvxwiki builds, with 1 or 2 skill changes, or one of the variations of such.

Like I said before, they were unique because those were the people that decided to not follow the rules, which was to be unique, and to have something effective that isn't the current meta.

It won't be very long before these henchmen are completely despised for there horrible builds, complete with frenzy and primal rage, along with others, while good and lasting builds could have won.

Good job, Anet. You've really succeeded in pissing off 98% of the community, I'd say it's a new record.
Fril Estelin
Fril Estelin
So Serious...
• #295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos View Post
This is exactly why the 'originality rule' failed, along with the whole competition. ANet are merely rewarding people for copypasting off pvx, which is pretty silly. Instead of going through 30,000 submissions, they could have simply went on pvx and copied popular builds, which is what the winners builds are.
Here is the "originality rule":
http://www.guildwars.com/events/cont...test/rules.php
Quote:
Originality: Entries must be the submission of the contestant and cannot be taken from any other source. Your submission must not infringe on any patent, copyright, trademark or other intellectual property right, or any privacy, publicity or publishing rights of any third party, or be libelous, obscene or otherwise contrary to law.
It seems to me like an IP thing rather than a "please find new builds, not the ones from the meta" one, which is something Anet is keen on doing, see wiki.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowed Ritualist View Post
Good job, Anet. You've really succeeded in pissing off 98% of the community, I'd say it's a new record.
I suspect you're 95.43% wrong!
Arkantos
Arkantos
The Greatest
• #296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fril Estelin View Post
Here is the "originality rule":
http://www.guildwars.com/events/cont...test/rules.php
Quote:
Originality: Entries must be the submission of the contestant and cannot be taken from any other source. Your submission must not infringe on any patent, copyright, trademark or other intellectual property right, or any privacy, publicity or publishing rights of any third party, or be libelous, obscene or otherwise contrary to law.
It seems to me like an IP thing rather than a "please find new builds, not the ones from the meta" one, which is something Anet is keen on doing, see wiki.
Thanks for supporting my point, I guess.

The point I'm trying to make is simple. ANet said the submissions couldn't be taken from another source (read: pvxwiki). As Regina clearly showed, the majority of people who submitted builds didn't copy off wiki. Now, the majority of winning builds were clearly copied off pvxwiki (read: taken from another source, against the rules). So people who followed the rules got nothing, while people who ignored the rules won.
Fril Estelin
Fril Estelin
So Serious...
• #297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos View Post
Thanks for supporting my point, I guess.
I'm not, although the text clearly does.

EDIT: stop modifying your posts :P
El Presidente
El Presidente
Forge Runner
• #298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra View Post
Each winner will have to sign and return a Declaration of Eligibility and Liability Release form, confirming that they are eligible to participate in the contest and that they have obeyed the rules of the contest.

By signing and returning the release form to us, those winners are declaring on a legal document that they thought of those builds themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos View Post
I think the problem here is that the winners are being awarded for going on pvxwiki and pretty much directly copy/pasting.

Crippling slash henchman - http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:W/an..._Slash_Warrior

Exactly the same, except on pvx the conjure slot is optional.

Magehunter's henchman - http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:W/an..._Smash_Warrior

Clearly directly copied from pvx.

Primal rage henchman - http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:W/E_Primal_Rage_Axe

Again, all the same skills.

VoR henchman - http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Me/D_VoR_Mesmer

One difference here.

WoH monk - http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Mo/any_GvG_WoH

Again, very little differences.

RC henchman - http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Mo/W_GvG_RC_Monk

Yet again, exactly the same, except pvx has an optional slot.

I think you get the point. I understand that when it comes to making henchmen that are going to be used, the builds are going to have to be effective and already powerful. However, it's pretty dumb to reward players for entering a submission that they simply copied off a website. So yeah, congratulations to everyone who won by copying builds of pvx.
So, how many of those 40 winners that'll declare they have "obeyed the rules of the contest" will not be receiving their prizes...based on the above? I'll wager they all will still get them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra View Post
These were the guidelines as listed in the official rules:

Quote:
"We want you to devise potent, effective skill bars for the new henchmen in GvG and Heroes Ascent."

"Do you have ideas for great, competitive henchmen skill bars? Enter your best skill bars in our Henchman Skill Bar Contest!"

"Entries will be judged on the basis of merit and appropriateness to game design considerations as determined by the Development Team."
Oh /facepalm! We were supposed to follow the guidelines and not the official rules???

Quote:
Originally Posted by GW.com
Originality: Entries must be the submission of the contestant and cannot be taken from any other source. Your submission must not infringe on any patent, copyright, trademark or other intellectual property right, or any privacy, publicity or publishing rights of any third party, or be libelous, obscene or otherwise contrary to law.

By entering the Guild Wars Henchman Skill Bar Contest 2009, (a) you agree to all of the terms and conditions of these Official Rules and Conditions, (b) you warrant that your entry is your own original work and that it does not violate any rights of any third party...
Please do explain exactly what part of your own official rules you do not understand...and try not to sugarcoat your answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos View Post
This is exactly why the 'originality rule' failed, along with the whole competition. ANet are merely rewarding people for copypasting off pvx, which is pretty silly. Instead of going through 30,000 submissions, they could have simply went on pvx and copied popular builds, which is what the winners builds are.
QFT.
]HM[ Sabre Wolf
]HM[ Sabre Wolf
Lion's Arch Merchant
• #299
I think at this point we are repeating ourselves... and we are beating a dead horse... because most of what is being said the past 3 pages was said on page 1 and 2. Lets wait for ANET to tell us why they allowed the rules to be broken and we will go from there... because this thread is not going to go much of anywhere till then...
Martin Alvito
Martin Alvito
Older Than God (1)
• #300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra View Post
Each winner will have to sign and return a Declaration of Eligibility and Liability Release form, confirming that they are eligible to participate in the contest and that they have obeyed the rules of the contest.
This begs the question, "How do you plan to enforce this?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra View Post
So this means that more than half of the winning builds were not submitted by anyone else. This is out of over 30 000 submissions.
This doesn't alter the fact that you could have gotten identical versions of most of the winning bars by cut-and-paste from PvX. Nor does it alter the fact that the current AI is painfully unequipped to run many of those bars, or the fact that about a quarter of the bars are laughably bad.

What's clear is that the judging criterion failed. People that are unfamiliar with the flaws in the game's AI selected the winning bars. Updating the AI to address these flaws would be a herculean task. You may claim that the dev team will update the AI all you want, but going to a bimonthly balance schedule suggests that the dev team lacks the time to do so.

What is equally clear is that you invested a lot of effort generating poor quality outputs. It's not that we don't appreciate the effort. It's that we prefer that your efforts produce observable, positive results in the game.

That didn't happen with this contest. This is why people are upset.