SF Argument

Quote: Originally Posted by Simath

Oh and pertaining to your comment about him caring about what people do and it not effecting him, your wrong. SF has effected EVERYONE in this game. If you can't come to this realization you have some problems to work out.
Secondly: SF has not affected this game negatively for anybody other than the ELITISTS who want EXCLUSIVITY. It has not affected anyone who wants to play the game balanced. There are obviously a fair amount of players who prefer not to use these gimmick builds, so those who feel similarly can find one another and have a grand old time. Their desire to remove these skills/builds from the game are what's negatively affecting the most people: those who enjoy their easier time allowing them to get more out of the game that they paid an equal initial share to get into. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it: PERMA SF DID NOT PREVENT YOU FROM PLAYING THE GAME THE WAY YOU WANT TO PLAY IT. But if you nerf Perma SF, it will prevent A MAJORITY OF PLAYERS from playing it the way THEY like to play it. Capiche?

It's an argument that holds water. People who don't want speed clears around are those who want to profit from rarity of items, rather than give CASUAL PLAYERS (yes I said it again...sorry for defending those this game was designed for) a fighting chance at getting something nice that will stop the punk kiddies who think nice items are a prerequisite for being "good at the game" from giving them a hard time. If they want a specific skin, they either have to buy it or farm it. If farming isn't an option, and the stuff costs more than they can afford, they're SOL. You're saying that for someone to have something that looks nice, they have to have no life? Please...go play something that requires that someone do nothing other than play just that game and do nothing else, and leave GW to the rest of us.

Quote: Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Secondly: SF has not affected this game negatively for anybody other than the ELITISTS who want EXCLUSIVITY. It's an argument that holds water. Yeah and Signet of Ghostly Might did not affect this game negatively for anybody other than the ELITISTS who didn't run it!

Shit that's a lot of water.

Quote: Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Secondly: SF has not affected this game negatively for anybody other than the ELITISTS who want EXCLUSIVITY. It's an argument that holds water. People who don't want speed clears around are those who want to profit from rarity of items, rather than give CASUAL PLAYERS (yes I said it again...sorry for defending those this game was designed for) a fighting chance at getting something nice that will stop the punk kiddies who think nice items are a prerequisite for being "good at the game" from giving them a hard time. If they want a specific skin, they either have to buy it or farm it. If farming isn't an option, and the stuff costs more than they can afford, they're SOL. You're saying that for someone to have something that looks nice, they have to have no life? Please...go play something that requires that someone do nothing other than play just that game and do nothing else, and leave GW to the rest of us. Guild Wars should be designed for both hardcore and casual players. But thats kind of impossible when both sides bitch continously.

3 or 4 hours to clear UW? Sorry, I have to agree with Arkantos here in that it shouldn't take 3 - 4 hours to clear any part of the game even if at casual play.

While I do not mean for that to sound elitist or exclusionary, I do mean that comment to be more of the logical result of tuning tactics. Even casual play requires a player to adapt to each area of the game, especially an elite area.

After all, 3 - 4 hours to clear anything sounds more like punishment than fun. If it takes you 3 - 4 hours to clear an area because you're bad, then it's really your choice to get better. On the other hand, sometimes it can be a lot more fun to intentionally bring a poorly or strangely built team to intentionally increase the challenge of an area.

Quote: Originally Posted by Apollo Smile

Guild Wars should be designed for both hardcore and casual players. But thats kind of impossible when both sides bitch continously. Those hardcore players can play the game using hardcore team builds. The casual players should have a casual build they can do the same things with. If people can learn this simple logic, everything will be just fine. Too bad those hardcore players want to get rich in a friggin' game, and those casual player builds used by hardcore farmers gets in the way. Oh well...the game isn't based on item skins anyway....too bad. Go get rich in the real world or another game where gear matters. GW is meant to be a fun to play game, not a lesson in economics.

Quote: Originally Posted by A11Eur0

*Insert nonsense here* I do hope you realize your efforts to insult me just makes me want to troll you harder. Perhaps there is a lesson to learn here...

Anyways, I'm not going to read everything you posted above. I see elitist and casual player bolded a few times, so I'll just assume you're using the same old arguments that people use for Ursan. Oh, and I fought against Ursan, and guess what, I was right. lolololol

You're defending speed clears, so my guess is that you are one of the scrubs who profits off this and doesn't want his precise gem to disappear.

Perhaps I'll take some time to address the elitist argument. You're correct I am an elitist. Why? Because I'm better than the insignificant plebs who flood Riverside in their hordes of idiocy. When you've argued about broken nonsense such as Ursan as long as I have, and always end up right. You tend to become bored with the children and their easy mode rubbish.

Feel free to remark about my passive aggressive idiocy and personal insults. I will be eagerly awaiting your reply.

You just said a casual build should be able to do the same thing as a hardcore team build.

I guess we'll continue to feed you.

Quote: Secondly: SF has not affected this game negatively for anybody other than the ELITISTS who want EXCLUSIVITY. It's an argument that holds water. People who don't want speed clears around are those who want to profit from rarity of items, rather than give CASUAL PLAYERS (yes I said it again...sorry for defending those this game was designed for) a fighting chance at getting something nice that will stop the punk kiddies who think nice items are a prerequisite for being "good at the game" from giving them a hard time. If they want a specific skin, they either have to buy it or farm it. If farming isn't an option, and the stuff costs more than they can afford, they're SOL. You're saying that for someone to have something that looks nice, they have to have no life? Please...go play something that requires that someone do nothing other than play just that game and do nothing else, and leave GW to the rest of us. I have no problem with casual players obtaining rare items. I do, however, have a problem when they're obtaining them through abusing overpowered skills in order to complete the hardest areas of the game in 20 minutes with no troubles. So do ANet, apparently (look at that, they're ELITISTS too!).

In the end, everyone should be able to obtain rare items in a reasonable amount of time, granted they have the required skills. Elite areas are supposed to be somewhat challenging, not a walk in the park. If you think I'm an elitist for having common sense and using logic (challenging areas supposed to be challenging, bad/unskilled players shouldn't be able to complete them super fast with ease) that's fine. I have an opinion of you, too. But whatever, arguing with a brick wall isn't very fun. ANet knows where the community stands, they'll do what they do.

Quote: Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Those hardcore players can play the game using hardcore team builds. The casual players should have a casual build they can do the same things with. I'm not for or against SF. I just can't be bothered to give a rats ass. However, this part of your post is not well thought out at all.

Hardcore team build = Casual build?
Hardcore team build + Casual builds should do the same things?

......interesting analysis

Quote: Originally Posted by Simath I do hope you realize your efforts to insult me just makes me want to troll you harder. Perhaps there is a lesson to learn here...

Anyways, I'm not going to read everything you posted above. I see elitist and casual player bolded a few times, so I'll just assume you're using the same old arguments that people use for Ursan. Oh, and I fought against Ursan, and guess what, I was right. lolololol

You're defending speed clears, so my guess is that you are one of the scrubs who profits off this and doesn't want his precise gem to disappear.

Perhaps I'll take some time to address the elitist argument. You're correct I am an elitist. Why? Because I'm better than the insignificant plebs who flood Riverside in their hordes of idiocy. When you've argued about broken nonsense such as Ursan as long as I have, and always end up right. You tend to become bored with the children and their easy mode rubbish.

Feel free to remark about my passive aggressive idiocy and personal insults. I will be eagerly awaiting your reply. 1: they weren't bolded, they were capitalized. Shows your logical thinking abilities.
2: I don't speed clear anything. I don't profit off of anything. In fact, most of the high end stuff I've looted from when I DID speed clear, I kept. I just enjoy being able to log into the game once in a while maybe and get a quick shot at Urgoz or the FoW end chest, rather than waiting 2 hours to form a group just to fail halfway through a 3 hour GW binge session because some guy's mother tells him to get off the computer.

You ended up "right" about ursan? Who says the Ursan argument had a right and wrong side? Anet eliminated it, sure....but what was the real reason? Was it because people were clearing stuff too fast, or was it because people were easily discriminated against for having low titles? It's much harder to discriminate against players for current speed clears, because there's no telling their level of experience in using shadow form, RoJ, etc.

Also, Shadow Form is nowhere near as dominating in as many areas of the game as Ursan was, and especially when you have newer players using it, overcasting their self-heals and run skills thus draining their energy and dropping SF, etc. It still takes a modicum of experience to repeatedly clear areas successfully, and much more experience as well as a well-oiled team of players to complete the areas in record times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme! This part of your post is not well thought out at all. Hardcore team build = Casual build? Hardcore team build + Casual builds should do the same things? What are you smoking? Hook me up, sounds real good. Hardcore players = Balanced, physicalway, etc. Casual players = Perma SF+RoJ+CoP/Discord/Sabway Multiple different ways of doing the same things, the harder-to-master ways being the weapon of choice for the "hardcore players." Hardcore players in my mind are those who enjoy the challenge of playing the game, and play for hours a day, daily, and can spend the time to learn intricacies of harder team builds required to be successful, rather than spamming 1 2 3 4. Casual players in my mind are those who enjoy playing the game on occasion, and sometimes want to delve into something a little harder than yet another normal mode mission or getting another character to endgame. As of now I fall into this category. I can easily jump into the "hardcore" builds, as I've done that many a time before, but I don't always have the time to sit around waiting for a group to be formed. Perhaps you people can take a step back and maybe learn some reading comprehension, and maybe try to step into the minds of people unlike you who enjoy multiple types of entertainment or have responsibilities other than selling that next BDS for another stack of ecto.

Quote: Originally Posted by A11Eur0 If you remove speed clears, I guarantee you that the areas will be DEAD to anyone who isn't just farming specific areas. You make it sound as if there was nothing to do in PvE before consumables and PvE skills were introduced. I have a hard time believing nothing will be done by anyone simply because the rewards take slightly longer to acquire.

One of the arguments that popped up for Ursan was that it got people grouping again, which I can respect. However if nerfing a skill/build causes you to stop playing entirely or grouping with those people it kinda counters that point. We see the same argument surfacing again with this. Quite frankly if those are the people who are going to stop playing, the ones who just wanted the loot instead of forming bonds and making friends (one of the points in playing an MMO) then we're better off without them. I'm not sure why anyone would want to play with someone who was solely there because the rewards were quick, knowing full well the rewards still exist as does the grouping experience even after the updates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0 Was it because people were clearing stuff too fast, or was it because people were easily discriminated against for having low titles? Same argument exists with Shadowform, and actually it's even more restrictive. You have to be a primary assassin to use it, and heck it clears even faster than Ursan did.

Quote: Originally Posted by Arkantos

I have no problem with casual players obtaining rare items. I do, however, have a problem when they're obtaining them through abusing overpowered skills in order to complete the hardest areas of the game in 20 minutes with no troubles. So do ANet, apparently (look at that, they're ELITISTS too!). DOES

NOT

AFFECT

YOU

AT

ALL.

'Nuff said.

Quote: Originally Posted by A11Eur0

DOES

NOT

AFFECT

YOU

AT

ALL.

'Nuff said. If he ever decides to be a high end trader it would. There were plenty of complaints about greens, inscriptions, and the like even though those fancy weapons did nothing to affect anyone else's game play.

Thank you! For awhile I thought you weren't going to respond.

Quote: Originally Posted by A11Eur0 1: they weren't bolded, they were capitalized. Shows your logical thinking abilities. You can take your personal insult and shove it.

lolol c wut i did thar???

Quote:

You ended up "right" about ursan? Who says the Ursan argument had a right and wrong side? Anet eliminated it, sure....but what was the real reason? Was it because people were clearing stuff too fast, or was it because people were easily discriminated against for having low titles? It's much harder to discriminate against players for current speed clears, because there's no telling their level of experience in using shadow form, RoJ, etc. Yes sir, I most certainly was. I argued it should be nerfed, and guess what. Go ahead give it a try. If you said "Simath was right" I owe you a cookie of your choice. Quote: Also, Shadow Form is nowhere near as dominating in as many areas of the game as Ursan was, and especially when you have newer players using it, overcasting their self-heals and run skills thus draining their energy and dropping SF, etc. It still takes a modicum of experience to repeatedly clear areas successfully, and much more experience as well as a well-oiled team of players to complete the areas in record times. Look at what SF can do to UW and other "elite" areas. It is unarguably dominating.

Quote: Originally Posted by A11Eur0

DOES

NOT

AFFECT

YOU

AT

ALL.

'Nuff said. Oh, it doesn't?

If I wanted to pug UW, what would I do on my warrior? What would I do on my ranger? What would I do on my paragon? What would I do on my dervish? What would I do on my....ok, I think you get the point.

So yes, when I'm not accepted into a group because only 2 professions are accepted in the groups, it affects me.

Oh, right, 'nuff said.

Quote: Originally Posted by Racthoh You make it sound as if there was nothing to do in PvE before consumables and PvE skills were introduced. I have a hard time believing nothing will be done by anyone simply because the rewards take slightly longer to acquire.

One of the arguments that popped up for Ursan was that it got people grouping again, which I can respect. However if nerfing a skill/build causes you to stop playing entirely or grouping with those people it kinda counters that point. We see the same argument surfacing again with this. Quite frankly if those are the people who are going to stop playing, the ones who just wanted the loot instead of forming bonds and making friends (one of the points in playing an MMO) then we're better off without them. I'm not sure why anyone would want to play with someone who was solely there because the rewards were quick, knowing full well the rewards still exist as does the grouping experience even after the updates.


Same argument exists with Shadowform, and actually it's even more restrictive. You have to be a primary assassin to use it, and heck it clears even faster than Ursan did. First argument: Surely you remember going into areas such as Urgoz's Warren and seeing nobody else pop in there for hours? Surely you remember when ToA was 1 district full of 55 monks and SS's, and nobody else?

Secondly:
The rewards are not the only reason clearing an area fast is desirable. Again my argument goes unread. I play to have fun with others. I PUG, often. Whenever I get the chance to, actually. But there comes a point where the game gets to be more tedious than fun when you're nearing your 3rd hour completing something, people have to take bio breaks, leave because they have other stuff to do, disconnect, etc. It's not JUST the rewards, it's the lack of completion, the knowledge that you failed something that sours the taste of the game.

Third: Anybody can make an assassin. Also, any Perma SF team build has more than just Assassins in it. There is always class discrimination, even in balanced team builds. How many balanced teams take Assassins into high end areas? Ritualists? Dervishes? It's hard for anyone not in a guild where they've proven their abilities with these classes to get into a group utilizing them. The same goes for any type of team build you can imagine.

"Perma SF clears it even faster than ursan did." ONLY FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE DEVOTED THE TIME TO PERFECT IT. Is this so hard to understand? It's been beaten to death and ignored all the same: "unskilled new players" are not going to be jumping into a group and making record times. Success rates for unskilled "bad" players even using these gimmicks are fairly low, because even perma SF is more than just pushing keys. Proper teamwork, proper aggro, proper use of skill combinations, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos Oh, it doesn't? If I wanted to pug UW, what would I do on my warrior? What would I do on my ranger? What would I do on my paragon? What would I do on my dervish? What would I do on my....ok, I think you get the point. So yes, when I'm not accepted into a group because only 2 professions are accepted in the groups, it affects me. Oh, right, 'nuff said. Remove these gimmick builds and try to pug UW. You'll get the same results because you're not a Monk or Necromancer. And you can STILL GET INTO GROUPS with guilds. That's my point. These people would not be doing these areas AT ALL...the areas would be dead except for solo/duo farmers and you'll still be sitting there twiddling your thumbs.

Quote: Originally Posted by Arkantos

Oh, it doesn't?
So yes, when I'm not accepted into a group because only 2 professions are accepted in the groups, it affects me. What's so ironic about that situation is the fact that it is one of the very complaints assassins used before UWSC. Nobody lets me in their group bawbawbaw. Now it's reversed and they are on the other side vigilantly defending their ways. How hypocritical of them.

tsk tsk

To defend such a cheap broken skill and blatant abuse of it is just blind ignorant defense because you can't admit your view is flawed and imo biased.

Let me put it simply, if people want to play the game by casually walking past "elite" foes without risk and waltzing to the rewards in 20 minutes because they have more important things to do, hop on a console and punch in as many cheat codes as your heart desires.

This is not the game for it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Simath What's so ironic about that situation is the fact that it is one of the very complaints assassins used before UWSC. Nobody lets me in their group bawbawbaw. Now it's reversed and they are on the other side vigilantly defending their ways. How hypocritical of them.

tsk tsk And if these builds are removed they'll be on the sidelines again.

Once more in plain english: Gimmick builds do not prevent you from using alternate team builds. Period. Nobody is forcing you to play the way they want to, yet your arguments are to force people to play your way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Dog To defend such a cheap broken skill and blatant abuse of it is just blind ignorant defense because you can't admit your view is flawed and imo biased. Let me put it simply, if people want to play the game by casually walking past "elite" foes without risk and waltzing to the rewards in 20 minutes because they have more important things to do, hop on a console and punch in as many cheat codes as your heart desires. This is not the game for it. Those people waltzing to the end are not "casual players" as I have already stated. Hooray for selective reading and reasoning. Strawman arguments abound on GWG. Let me break it down for you AGAIN. Casual players: people who have a limited amount of time in their day to play. Hardcore elitists: people who don't want to use the gimmick builds, because they want the challenge. Hardcore farmers: people who play hours a day using gimmick builds and perfecting them merely to cash in the most amount of stuff they can get their hands on. Casual players fail more often than not. Hardcore elitists seem to be lumping casual players and farmers into the same category merely due to their choices of team builds. Which is more prevalent: the casual player wanting to do something different and have a chance at something nice, or those who play for hours racking in the goodies because the easy way is there FOR THEM?

Quote: If it takes 4 hours to do something without SF, and an hour to do it with SF, which would the CASUAL PLAYER rather do? 4 hours? I see you've been solo trapping DoA in HM backwards with your monitor turned off.

Also, was this thread necessary? Isn't there an SF thread over in Riverside? I guess I'll go copy-paste my arguments from there:

1 > 2 > 3

Got it?
That's what it takes to perma. When you see that purdy little SF icon start to flicker, do it again. If you can count to three, you have achieved invincibility in GW.

The farming potential of Warriors, Necros, Dervish, Rangers, and Ritualists don't come anywhere near the farming prowess of a sin or a monk. Eles? Not quite. Paragons and Mesmers? lol

Almost every farm another profession can do, a sin can do. And a sin can usually do it faster. Exceptions include some 600 stuff and very few others.

Sins are also required in damn near every team farm in the game. FoWSC and VSF, for example.

SF also allows poor players to easily attain what used to take dedicated/skillful players much longer. Call me elitist, but if you don't earn it you don't deserve it.

I am objecting to this meta because it revolves around a skill that is clearly broken, it limits play to one build, it can clear elite areas in Hard Mode in a matter of minutes, and it is very simple to do. SF is obviously broken and there is no logical argument that says otherwise. Invincibility was not intended for GW, which is a game that is supposed to be based on skill. Pressing 1 > 2 > 3 and then slamming your head on the keyboard is poor game design.