Why we must have a balanced PVE

OK, I heard lots reasons from people who defended those over-powered pve skills such as UB. There is not much disagreement in terms of how powerful these skills are; the disagreement is why should we just let people play the game any way they want? In another word, why should we have a balanced pve any way?

If this game is a single player RPG game then I agree with that. Let people play the game anyway they want, enable all the mods and cheats, let the user change the difficulty levels, and make sure everyone can beat every thing one way or the other.

The problem is that it is not a single player game, including the pve side. When you play with others and interact with others, you are in a community. In a community, any kind of community, it should always reward the best skilled people with great amount of efforts. Let everyone be equal regardless of their skill and effort will simply destroy the community.

Why you think people work so hard in this game to get rare skin weapons, elite armors, and maxed titles? Most of those items don’t have real in game benefits other than pride. By been skilled and worked hard you can get things others cannot. Now if there is a shortcut for everyone to be the best, and therefore get everything they want, then what is the point to get those elite items and maxed titles any way? If this game is about been equal, then why don’t we simply enable the cheat mode? Just let players enter DOA, and type “kill” to wipe out all monsters on the screen. Or we can make this even simpler, let people type “get” to get all the weapons they want, “gold” to put 1M gold in your account, and “Max titles” so now everyone is “God Waling Amongst Mere Mortals”. If this is the way this game is moving towards, I am sure I and many others who do put efforts in this game won’t be looking forward to this “equal” community any more, including GW2.

Now, I know the pain of those who can’t beat DOA in any other ways. The question is, do you really have to beat DOA to enjoy this game? I failed at least 10 times when I and my friend tried DOA with 2 man 6 heroes team before the release of GWEN. Every time we failed it we rework our skills and tactics until we managed to beat it with our hero team. I had great amount of fun by keep reading every skills over and over until figured a way to improve our team. The game is not over when you die, it is over when you give up. Ok, it’s not your style, you don’t want to create and improve your own build. Then how about learn from others? There are builds on Wikipvx that you can learn from. What? You don’t want to learn either; you just want beat it? Don’t you know this game already has areas that you can beat it any way you want? Like the pre-searing? Oh, you want to beat the hardest part of the game without efforts. Ok, let’s all sign up to ask Anet to enable the cheats then, or let’s have “god mode” enabled.

I don’t see how an unbalanced pve won’t hurt the guild war community in long term. To fix this, we can:

1. Balance all skills, including those pve only skills.
2. Or, leave the pve skills to be overpowered. But while you using those over powered skills like Ursan, you gain no xp, drops, and gold. Any accomplishment while using these skills (any players in the team) cannot be count towards any titles.

BTW, the reason some professions are way more popular than others on the pve side is due to the way AI works. Monsters always gather together which make aoe skills very effective. To solve the some professions are over demanded problem, Anet should try to improve the AI. By making all non-monk profession to the Ursan way, it further simplified the profession choice to be either Ursan or monk during PuG. Which it defeat the purpose of helping more professions got involved in the high end pve games.

What? I read this post and I don't understand your post. You are mad people are running ursan. Running ursan doesn't affect you. You don't like ursan: don't run it. Some people find ursan fun. It is PvE on easy mode. Some people need/want that.

Your idea 2 is just epic fail. That isn't even an idea. That is a I hate ursan lets rage on everyone using it.

Going through the game and doing all the harder areas(elite areas) with ursan or any other pve only skills doesn't necessarily mean they are going to get all the rare skins and great titles and everything else.

All the high end areas are easily done in hard mode with a competent team not running ursan. If you hate them that much. Get a guild team/friends team together and go beat them.

PvE is about your own accomplishments. Who cares how you got that crystaline sword or the GWaMM title? You got it awesome! In the end it is just PvE and no 1 really cares how you beat uw or how you got ur 10 million ectos.

It is the same thing as HA. You are rank 14 awesome. O you got it doing iway/sway/hway/*insert a spike*. O well you are still rank 14. It doesn't matter. Any accomplishments you have are yours and no 1 elses. You got them doing this lameway build. Who cares. It in no way affects anyone else but themself. (I posted this PvP example cause well. I am tired of people raging on lameway builds. All it does is spam up local chat in HA.)

EDIT: BTW don't say "O Songbringer must ursan thats why he is defending it." I don't ursan I didnt even get the skill untill yesterday because I wanted to try a build I saw on PvX. Wich I didn't really like as an ele.

I thought we were past the QQ on Ursan.

*sigh*

Well before they close/delete this thread, can we get some cat pictures in here? My collection is looking a little thin.

Quote: Originally Posted by Richardt

So we should protect ebayer's and people who grind 24 hours a day, because they want to preserve their e-peen, by stopping other people from having fun?

"Ohnoes, I feel worthless because more then 1% of the other players have the same equipment I have."

Your say in the first paragraph that you would be ok with pve skills in a single player only game, but because you can see other players in this game you feel the need to be special some how and be able to gloat over something. QQ more.

BTW, please tell me how you think the old 5 ele nukers + 1 obs tank + 2 monk teams took any skill. Because thats how 99% of DoA and other high end areas were finished before PvE skills.

Where in the post you figure I mad at people who run Ursan? lol
I was amount the earliest who got Ursan and maxed my norn, before it came popular. And I tried it before I speak, so I know what I am talking about.

PvE on easy mode? Oh yea, I guess you do agree with me on that. So why do you agree with me for the rest, to enable "easy mode", "god mode", "cheat mode"? Since you think it has nothing to do with others, and does not effect other players in any way, then just let people play it any way they want?

I am talking how this game should be. Either the free style like the single player game or we do have some common rules and must follow them to achieve something, whether you care about those achievements or not.

So don't take it on me personally.

Quote: Originally Posted by Songbringer

When did I find out you were mad at ursan. The whole time you said PvE should nerf pve skills and people who use pve only skills shouldnt get drops gold exp ect. How bout the whole post when u hated on PvE only skills?


O and the fact you specifically said UB in the post?

Quote: Originally Posted by Richardt

So if I said PVE (including UB) should be balanced for reasons 1,2,3, I am pve skill hater?

And if I said PVP skills should be balanced too, is that make me a pvp hater too?

Is this the way how you think?

Quote: Originally Posted by Songbringer

You people have to start thinking the way A-Net is thinking. They are a company... and companies need money to exist... in order to get money, you have to make people happy after buying your stuff. UB and most of the other PvE skills make a lot of people very happy (which is different from their previous state, which was a state of boredom)... and at what cost? At the cost of the superiority complex of the all of those elite bastards who did it all the hard way. Yes, now their titles and achievements are not so prestigious as they were and they have nothing to be proud of anymore. Their glorious life goal has shrunk to a more humble dimension, and they can't brag and gloat anymore. Truly, that is a tragedy.

The "PvE community" can go jump on a leg, A-Net cares about the individual and tries to motivate that person into buying and loving their products. If you want a competitive environment and something that will make you feel like a better person, go PvP! They offer so much money to those who do well in GvG's and Hero Battles. Let me save the world however the frell I want!

This reply is even more interesting.

Yea just delete the posts, so those dis-agree with you can disappear.


Quote: Originally Posted by Richardt

We're never past the QQ about UB...

BUT ANYWAY,

PvE skills were introduced to give the PvE population skills that didn't need to be balanced to allow them to steamroll PvE. They're PvE only so they wouldn't affect PvP. That's basically the entire reason they're there.

I am old enough to know that company need to make money. At the same time as a gamer I will always voice for my point of view.

The point is, GW sold over 4M copies before the release of GWEN. So what you think that makes this game sold so well? The UB from GWEN that make people happy?

One thing I can tell is that lots online RPG disappeared fast because they lost balance during the late part of the game. GW, on the other side, is well balanced game which extended it's life. Until nf, you can't get over powered items or skills that breaks the balance of the game. This is what makes this game sold over 4M copies. For people love powerful skills and items, should there are lots broken online RPG for them to try.

As for pve and pvp, most people only play pve. So could we have a healthy and long life game when only pvp is balanced? Most people don't even play pvp.



Quote: Originally Posted by Schmerdro

Quote: Originally Posted by bluemoonxia

Quote: it further simplified the profession choice to be either Ursan or monk during PuG. Which it defeat the purpose of helping more professions got involved in the high end pve games. Don't understand exactly what you were trying to say there, however, I can make some statement about it.

How about me deleting my Sin a while ago because it's impossible to find a decent PUG to take me?
How about my mesmer being left out on every DoA PUG because he's not the Ele they are looking for?

Do I need a PUG? No, I can play with guild most of the time if I want to.
But I enjoy teaming up with new people from time to time.
And the community already showed that they don't want balanced PvE, they want failsafe play ('wasting' 3+ hours is no fun).
Failsafe play seems to be about Tank/Nuker/Healer or plain Ursan.

Do I like this?
No.However, UB does have one benefit.
No one cares about your profession. You have a decent UB rank and high LB for DoA and you are set to go.
It's the one skill that solved the entire profession discrimination.

In my opinion A-net should have made somewhat balanced play part of the design and stepped away from increasing difficulty by adding more foes with increased capabilities. They decided to keep the current AI as is and introduce some overpowered skills to work around it.

Should UB be changed?
Yes and no. Yes because it's a stupid skill that requires little skill besides pressing 1,2,3 and 4. Put up some consumables for even less thinking.
No because it's the one skill that makes all classes (almost) equal.
No more worries how long it will take to take the mesmer into DoA or whether or not to delete the Sin because A-net decided to make enormous mobs instead of balanced groups where you can pick out a priority target and swap out fast.

If A-net wants to change UB, let them also fix PvE AI, mob layout and the PvE community mindset.

WAh! I am a UB person...I have run only two builds since I got UB. I love it...why? because I am a necro and it is fun to switch up and be a tank...plus, now all those neat swords and shileds I find have a use...or I can go Para and use my spears.

I got 10 max titles without using UB, I will probably get the next 10 using it, but does it matter? Most of my guild got 80% of their Vanqs/ HM titles leeching off of a really good 600 Smite monk. Is that any different?

I run with another necro and we use 6 necro heros, is running HM vanqs using Necroway wrong too?

I oly play about 10 hours a week...I need to have a little fun...

Plus I never really wanted Hard mode...What is the point of having Hard Games...I want to win, succeed...not be all eite like

When you have UB replace your skill bar, you are no longer playing your profession. By making your original profession disappeared doesn't really solve the profession discrimination. You now been view as UB instead of your original profession.

As for many other points in the post, I do agree with you.

"In my opinion A-net should have made somewhat balanced play part of the design and stepped away from increasing difficulty by adding more foes with increased capabilities. "

Right. A group of level 20 monsters with good skill sets are harder than a group of level 24 without proper skill sets.

"let them also fix PvE AI, mob layout and the PvE community mindset."

Sure thing. PVE AI and mob layout is the root of profession discrimination.

Anet should work on some of these long time ago. I don't know if they gonna change any thing at this point, but I wish we can voice on this enough that Anet can at least have this right for GW2.

Quote: Originally Posted by the_jos

It's not about you as an gamer been right or wrong for using something that the game allows you to use. You can use any thing they allowed, nothing right or wrong here.

It's about Anet should balance the pve side as how they do it for pvp side. At least try to.... And UB is not the only thing un-balanced in pve.....

Quote: Originally Posted by wynoski

Personnaly, I agree to make pve skill more powerfull than normal skill, why not. They are generally gimmick.

The problem with UB is that is not even near balanced with the other blessing (wolf and raven) let alone the other pve skill.

"Plus I never really wanted Hard mode...What is the point of having Hard Games...I want to win, succeed...not be all eite like " Why the one who say that is actually playing multiplayer game in the first place??? or may be he is ironic. I chose to believe the second way.

I mean for people that are against nerf and class discrimination (I play no monk group) to say that UB is not balanced it should be that some red line has been crossed.

TBH, it's not ANet's responsibility to fix PvE community mindset. All they can do is add in skills, and adjust them as time goes on. For that to happen, it's up to us as a community to adjust that mindset.

Don't like PvE skills? Fine-don't use them-noone is forcing you to. But if you want to fix the community's mindset, then you'll need to take this one step further-make some PvE builds that work great that don't utilize PvE skills or things like the Trinity.

But opening a thread and ranting about how PvE skills have made your elite areas more accessible is not conductive to the community-and even though you say otherwise, your initial post reads very much like a Ursan QQ.

And besides, there has been at least 4 massive discussions over at Riverside about the use of PvE skills (albeit they're more focused on UB in particular). I personnally feel that this topic has been exhausted and anything further is just counterproductive.

Just my 2 cents.