Update: 13 Nov. 07

And I expect next you're going to tell me how PvE skill balance, the topic of discussion relates to any of this?

Thank you..

I don't even exploit my warthog like that, but you shine a light on something more important. The fact that the other side of the fence is an afterthought here. It's like Izzy said, ok, let's do this quick fix for PvP. Hmm, what about PvE... bah, they always complain and it's pve, they'll adapt.

Except it seems to be a repeating case for them. over and over and over.

Hmm so if we as pve players can't over come something we are either not good enough players or our build is not good enough. YET If pvpers can't do the same the build has to be nerfed as its clearly not thier fault. "I guess thier just not as good players as us pve players are and need to be helped" PLEASE NOTE THE PREVIOUS SENTANCE WAS SARCASM.

Aslo if pvp is so damm important to GW and Anet that we have to have contant nerfs to the skills to keep it balanced why is it there so FEW people playing it? Why not once and for all seperate pvp and pve. Or maybe just maybe nerf pvp when it needs it and leave pve alone but I guess that would be to hard. Its not like anet does'nt know when we are playing pve and pvp now does it. Opps yes they do we have pve ONLY skills.

Well, I was going to comment on the update but this is going to get lost within 8 to 10 pages of the same 5 people talking crap at one another.

For those that don't get the why skills are balanced, I wish Anet would create PvE missions where the monsters randomly pick (so you can't build to counter it) a broken build to play (necro thump, hexes, derv spike, sins jumping around instagibbing things and then recalling etc. etc.) - you would then perhaps appreciate why things are changed.

Ya it's great for pve... just "ok" for pvp though

Haha would be a neat idea.
Anyways good update in my eyes.

You've got to be kidding me.

Evidently it was good enough for you to bring it up. I guess it wasn't good enough for me to counter your argument and explain what PvE really is.

My post was clearly a response and counter to your incorrect statement. That's the problem right there. You have no idea. You just see PvEzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Besides, the actual topic of discussion was the Game Update on 11/13.

In particular, the SR affected all players, but I always felt that SR was VERY VERY powerful in PvE and PvP (i butted heads in the SR nerf threads with other PvE players), since its the only class that can store energy in outside sources for later use (minions and spirits).

The changes to it have not been some lame exception patch, but rather a reworking of a whole attribute, encompassing players in PVE, PVP as well as the NPCs in the game.


This is not how i feel about the corpse exploitation change to player pets.


It doesnt solve the problem, which in the end, are the Necromancers.

--------------
Some questions, since im not a PvP expert.

- Do pet deaths affect overall Team Morale?
- Do pet deaths affect points in HA pvp modes?
- Do pets gain positive effect from morale boost in GvG?

why do pets not make corpses

how can i petition for a consume pet skill

this is the worst update ever

i hope this update gets reversed so i can start a consume pet petition

plz i rly need

Heh, there's potential in that idea somewhere, and I say that as a PvE player (but not the kind that bitches and cries about PvP balances, I actually like being forced to rethink the way I do things).

Ok, let me try to elaborate in a way that *you* get the idea too, without lowering myself to the level of your last sentence.

PvE:
If certain situations/areas/mobs seem to be overpowered in one or the other way, the players adapt to this by coming up with builds that are suitable to beat them (which is for example how the BP ranger for tombs got so popular).

Notice: the players adapted by coming up with a counter-build or a build that could overpower what they were facing (and correct me if I'm wrong, but...isn't that why we have tons of skills? To come up with a viable build against what we're trying to defeat?)

So here comes a nerf for something that was vital in the above build.
What happens? Ultimately, once again, another viable build will be found. And so on, and so on. Adaption once again.

PvP:
If certain builds seem to be overpowered in one or the other way, the players will try to adapt to this by coming up with builds that are suitable to beat them.
Oh wait, that was long ago. Let me rephrase it:
If certain builds seem to be overpowered in one or the other way, the players will try to make a point that a nerf is in need, because trying to counter (adapt) would be too much of a hassle.

So here comes the nerf for that "unbeatable overpowered uber-build", the people who complained are happy (and are all over the forums, telling the PvE people to adapt), while the teams that formerly used the "fotm"-build look for another build (so admittedly, *they* have to adapt at that point too).

For the purpose of skill balance, all that matters is the killing aspect of PvE. PvE skills and mechanics are 'balanced' against each other, but the reason they are largely irrelevant is due to the fact the AI will always lose anyways, because it is meant to.

The other aspects of PvE are not relevant to the issue of balance, or balance allocation between PvE and PvP.

Your wall of text about sunshine, roleplay, and lore really isn't relevant at all.

Yeah necros have always been pretty uber on the pve side with spiteful, minions, and shivers. It was especially the case back before they limited the number of minions. You are right, though, in that a balance because it's needed all around is sometimes needed (as with the original 55s), but the biggest problem is one side or the other being an afterthought in the other side's balances seems to be the recurring issue. The pets are a good case in point.

I think the Fury guys got it right by catering to only one crowd. It's too late in the game to really change that now I suppose.

Lugosi, but you must understand, PvE is a STATIC game environment.

The enemy builds never change. Eventually a perfect build to destroy them and counter all their strengths and exploits their weaknesses will be created.

After this happens, the monster builds do not change. There is no need to. PvE players are fine with this.


In PvP, the builds are overpowered not because the players do not adapt, but because they CANNOT adapt.

Some skills ARE better than others, and some skill combinations are better than most. When you are in an environment where a lot of players want to win win win, they will only play the most powerful builds. And since theres a limit to the number of powerful builds, it creates a very very very stale gameplay state. Players are forced into certain buids, and counter-builds and nothing else.

They lose the freedom to build how they want, and they certainly lose the ability to have fun since it becomes predictable and becomes a game based on build and not player skill.

While a stale gameplay state is fine for PvE, it cannot be the same for a competitive gaming environment.

This is the difference.

If we as PVPers knew exactly when we were going to face a specific problem build, we'd adapt by taking counters to it. Since we don't have that option and you don't always face the same builds, balance is needed to level the gap between all possible skills one can use. Understand? You are also not aware of a whole other set of variables like maps.

That's essentially the Norn Tournament, just with groups instead of alone...

Such a bullshit nerf to assassins...


Its bad enough they neutered BOTH kd attacks ... but WTF did Anet do to Expose Defense?

If youre gonna cut the duration by that much, FFS cut the spell cost and recharge then too.


I might as well play A/Mo SoJ sin ...

I thought that all ready did that and its called the DOA